2006 FORUM POSTS

16. Monk: What do the coaches out there think about splitting the state finals into three sites, one for each division with boys/girls still competing at the same site?
    16.1 The Other: As a coach, I love being able to watch all divisions at one site; but as our sport grows, I think this will naturally become unreasonable. I am hoping at some point to get some television replays on local channels so we can still watch our colleagues and their teams compete if the Finals
are indeed at different sites. That being said, it seems imperative that as long as the boys and girls seasons run concurrently, we need to have the finals at the same locations: often the teams practice together, know one another, share coaches, or simply are just friends and
schoolmates that share a passion for the game- it would be a shame that they would be unable to support one another if their Regionals or Finals were in separate places. I think I would also like to put an additional plug in to have the Regionals and Finals go back to a format some have
used to great success- have a boys shift and a girls shift. This way, schools can have all coaches together helping each team in their respective times (one to run and get equipment, or be with the subs waiting to get in, etc), the team not competing can cheer on their colleagues, and the house has less action at once to be attentive to, allowing for greater and faster lane service. What do you all think?
15. Eagle Eye: There is too much of a disparity in points being put on the regional and finals of the singles tournament and kids who do not perform well during the year but get hot at the right time made the All State team because of 2 weeks of the season. Also, there are only 28 students who have the possibility of earning points in the finals. A person can win the regional and finish in the top 4 of the finals and get more points than he could have over the previous 12 weeks of competition. Take a look at other sports in the state that have All State teams. The selection is based on their performance over the course of the entire season, and in some instances the team is selected before the regional and state finals take place. The award should be based on extended excellence, not just the last 2 weeks of the year. Instead of giving 20 points at the regional and 16 points at the state finals, give everyone who makes the top 16 or 20 at the regionals 5 points, with 1st getting an additional 5 points. I don't think that points should be awarded for the state finals since all bowlers are not competing, but you could give the top 4 bowlers an additional 5 points and the winners an additional 2 points. That would only give bowlers who win the state title a possibility of 17 total points, as opposed to the 36 points that he/she could earn currently. You could also cut it off before the state finals and just use the regionals and then present the All State Awards at the State Finals. That way the bowlers would be recognized by their peers. But I believe that that current selection process is flawed and should be corrected.
    15.1 MSUANDU: I agree with Eagle Eye on this issue. I know for sure that one bowler failed to make his/her All-Conference team, yet made first team All-State. Where is the justice in that for the true team bowler, the bowler who performs at the top level for twelve out of thirteen weeks when he/she bowls in
their Conference.
        15.1.1 C-Town Crown: I agree with both of you, when I was looking at the All State Team I noticed that Ashlee Mefford, Leah VanStelle, and Stephanie Hall all made the All State Team whereas their teammate Cortney Longrey did not.  Yes she struggled a little bit during the conference meets but still averaged over a 170 and then averaged a 224 at the State Tournament.  And I was also curious as to how the All State Academics were chosen.
             15.1.1.1 Watching Eye: (4-22-06) Yes, I was looking into the All State team and saw that Coldwater’s Ashley Mefford made the first team and Stephanie Hall made the second team with Leah Vanstelle on Honorable Mention.  So, I went and looked up their conference and saw that, along with those three, Courtney Longrey made All Conference. Then, I looked up team averages to see what competition was out there and noticed that Lacie Boyer, another girl on the Coldwater team, did not make all conference and had a higher average than Courtney and the same as Leah.  Yes, Courtney may have had a 224 average at state, but that is only one weekend whereas the season is much longer and she carried an average in the 170's.  Your post sparked my eye because I believe the Coldwater team does have talent and needs to be seen.  To summarize things, you are wondering why she didn’t make all state and I am wondering why she made all conference. The Coldwater Girls team has back-to-back state championships and that shows that everyone making up that team has great talent and could go far with their skills.  I also have seen posted that Courtney and Leah are both in the 12th grade and are graduating this year. I would like to wish them both good luck in their following years of bowling, college and everything else you do.  Great Job to all the Coldwater Girls for winning State and the boys for making it to State! I can’t wait to see your teams back at state next year.
            15.1.1.1.2 Lil Shortney: (6-19-06) The All Conferences teams are not based on averages alone.  But as you pointed out that Lacey had a higher average than Cortney, she also bowled fewer games than Cortney.  But back to the All Conference teams, coaches nominate players for the All Conferences teams and the coaches from that conference vote on which ones to be selected.  So again, apparently the coaches in the Southwest 8 felt that Cortney Longrey deserved a spot on the All Conference Team.  And I also agree that the one weekend at State where Cortney averaged a 224 meant nothing, but she was the anchor during the semifinals and the finals and her team ended up winning state by 2 pins, so Cortney is an under pressure bowler. When you checked out the competition, did you see that in that in the Southwest 8 there is not that much competition for the girls and that may be the result in the lower averages?  But enough said with that. Like you said, Cortney and Leah are graduating, and I wish them the best of luck!
14. MSUANDU: Is it possible to post the yearly winners before the State Finals or within a week or two after completion? This is a practice that is done in every other high school sport that I am aware of. High school basketball has announced all teams including Mr. Basketball and they are only in the semi-finals. This would allow the bowlers to be recognized by their school at the winter sports banquet. If the delay is due to the News Paper availability to run the article, then please post it on Bowl Swami and update everyone when the article will run in the paper. I believe most high school bowlers live outside of Detroit and do not routinely read Detroit papers.
13. MSUANDU: We as parents/coaches should always focus on the STUDENT ATHLETE before we get too wrapped up in the excitement of league and tournament play. Remember, very few high school bowlers will make it to the next step and become collegiate bowlers. We need to remember that it is the education which will carry most of them through life. Therefore, I was very happy to see that MHSICBA was also concerned and understood the importance of the academic athlete.  We should always honor those that exceed in the classroom and the playing field.
12. Samiam: In regards to postings about the singles competition at the regional and state levels, I saw some references to golf and gymnastics. Both of these sports include individual honors. The way they determine their individual champion is similar to how some of our bowling events already do (i.e. Ladywood events), the scores rolled by the individuals DURING THE TEAM COMPETITION determine their placement in singles. Gymnastics does not have one day of individual competition and a different day for team play. Golf is the same. Teams qualify through the regionals and then the athletes go to state. In the state event, all individuals play, all the scores are added together and a team champ is named. The low individual winner is determined from the scores shot during that team competition.
        They do allow for outstanding individuals to compete at the state finals if their score was good enough in the region to be among a certain number of players allocated for advancement from their region. I think this could be something our association could "visit" in our next few meetings. For example, four teams could advance from each region, but if an athlete not on one of those teams was good enough to make the top seven in singles, (singles scores coming from the team competition, not a different day of competition), he would also advance to the state finals. All athletes who advanced in this manner would be bowling during the team competition and would be paired on lanes with each other. This would give a few more atheltes a chance to bowl in the finals for an individual title, and would not keep worthy players out of the state finals because their team was weak or had a bad day.
     Also, if we were to adopt this format, we would not have two days of regionals and two days of finals...we would have one of each - and could save money by not having to pay as much in lineage and two days of breakfast and lunch.
     This format also may allow some programs that are having trouble with funding/transportation etc. to make it to both events (if they were to qualify) for what had previously been the cost of making it to just one two-day event.
    I do think we need to give athletes who make it to the finals credit for getting there - but I am not convinced it should be for games/series bowled in the finals. If anything, they should get points for making it to the finals, but not for actual games bowled there, and then be awarded additional points based on how their TEAM placed in the event. If we are trying to put the emphasis on TEAM play, then we should make the singles area an adjunct or "after - the -thought" type of thing - where how well they do for their team will determine where they place in any singles standings.
          12.1 The One: I like the words of Samiam. I was reluctant to mention getting rid of the singles in my last message for fear of outrage. But it really makes sense in terms of saving money for teams. Too many teams have to travel and use school busing. With union workers the cost must be more than the whole season for these teams just for these two weekends. Not to mention hotel costs for overnighters. The money saved  may be better spent on instructional aids to improve the athlete's skills. We can still develop a Dream Team or Mr./Ms Michigan bowler out of the TEAM games throughout the year. Maybe we should talk to the MHSAA about looking into something like they do golf. Even if your team does not go forward the top scoring athlete could advance. Don't know how this could work but it has worked for golf. Plus we have all fresh participants bowling with their teams rather than the tattered and torn thumbs from all of the single games. I am sure the coaches and other players would like that.

11. The Other: If we open ourselves to considering scores outside of the league play, what guarantees that a coach doesn't choose to submit scores for only the favorable tournaments? If his or her 'star' player hits the wall and averages 180 for 6 games over the weekend with some small for-fun dual meet with a neighbor school, I can imagine a strong temptation to not include that in season average for some coaches. How will we ever know that a season average really represents every single game bowled? At least with the conference scores being considered, it is not possible to
hide any games. In terms of just being able to trust coaches, we already can see what happens (take for instance, the conversation about pulling players so their score is not counted) with these things. Even if everyone were actually completely honest, the perception and rumors would still persist. As an additional editorial comment, I'm not too interested in scoring
and reporting individual frame-by-frame scores for baker participation. First, I have other things to do while I'm coaching than keep track of things like that; but mostly because I would prefer to not pull out individual accomplishments in the team-focused event. I want to see a school's team score, not a total from 5 individuals put together.
ps- does anyone know if all 12 Regionals and the States had the same pattern put down, or even if they were supposed to?
10. Kozbowl: There are several MHSAA sports that do have individual competitions along with state competitions. Wrestling, gymnastics, and golf to name a few, and I am not in favor of eliminating individual competition in our sport.  What I am saying at this point is that consideration for post season honors should be limited to conference play due to cost involved.  Right now at our school any trip over .5 of a mile away from the school requires the use of a school bus at 200 to 300 per trip. No exceptions and no self transport. Some of the schools out there do not have that requirement at least for now, but eventually most of you will have that requirement as accidents, lawyers and school administrators start taking this sport more seriously. How many post season or extra non conference meets would you be taking your schools to if it cost you 300 a trip just to get there???  We basically have two kids this year that will be DQ from post season all state consideration. Even though they participated in every single conference meet, they will not have enough games in to compete with some of the other schools that did not have this transportation restriction and could afford to go to extra meets. That’s why I am saying for now limit consideration to conference play. To generate more money, I would have to hit up corporate sponsors or do more fund raisers all of which translates into less coaching time for the kids on the lanes. This year alone with the number of kids that came out for the sport and all the paperwork necessary we were reduced to 3.1 min of coaching time per practice per kid. That’s not a lot of time for any kid but especially a new bowler who needs more coaching it can have a real negative impact on how much progress is going to be made in a given year.  Keep in mind as you push to add different games into consideration for all state consideration the effect it will have not only on the kids but how much time you will have with your kids coaching as you add more paper work into the mix. I started coaching bowling 7 years ago and at that time got to spend a lot of time with each of the kids on the lanes. Each year there is less and less of that and more and more paperwork that has to be done. Let’s not reduce ourselves to just statisticians spending no time with the kids at all. The coaches out there will know what I mean.
9. Monk: I think it is very limiting to have one of  the all state selection criteria based on a "league standings" verification for average, minimum games, high game, etc. In no other sport is the athlete limited by a device that was designed for a different type of scoring. Our athletes compete in non-conference events against other MHSAA qualified schools, yet those scores are not posted on the "league standings" sheet. Traditionally, in sports such as basketball, football, baseball, etc. statisticians for teams keep stats that include all contests. If we are to rely on our coaches to police other matters such as eligibility, I believe we should rely on our coaches to submit statistics for their athletes that reflect the entire competitive season.
    9.1 MSUANDU: What criteria should be used to assess All-State?  What about the bowler who helps her/his team win the conference title or sanctioned tournaments. That to me should weigh more then a bowler having a great one/two weekends out
of the season. To answer one of your questions yes, all scores need to be reported, for all events bowled during the season.
Things I would like to see changed:
1. Pulling of a bowler during a bad game so as to not affect the player’s average. Needs to be stopped or prorate the game, or award a negative point to be added at the end of the season.
2. Baker frames are huge for team events.  We should record what ever the bowler scores during these games. Maybe award 2/10th of a point for a strike, 1/10 for a spare and nothing for an open. We would need to set a maximum value allowed during the season.
3. Changing the weighted values for Regional and State singles scores. Being a great individual bowler should not advance you to the front of the list on the ALL-STATE TEAM, DREAM TEAM or any other TEAM.
4. Award bowlers extra points for bowling in approved tournaments and reporting their scores.
5. Separate the singles event totally from the ALL STATE selection criteria. You would have individual awards and the team award totally separate from each other. Great individuals do not always make great TEAM players.
    I guess what I am saying is nothing is perfect. We need to make changes and tweak the system until we get as close as possible. Then every other year re-evaluate and make corrections when needed.
    I think everyone that has been working hard to make High School Bowling a success for the bowlers is doing a GREAT JOB! We just need to remember this is truly in the infant stage in the world of varsity sports and there will be growing pains as the years pass us by!
    9.2 Kozbowl: Pertaining to scores bowled in non conference events counting towards all state or dream team.  At this point in the sport, I think limiting consideration to conference events is fair.  The reason is that several schools are just getting into the sport and have min funding.  We can barely afford to have our team participate in just conference events.  Funding for additional non conference meets at this point is a dream.  Why should kids from schools that have only min funding be basically DQ from state team consideration because the school could not afford to enter them into additional non conference events to pad or boost their stats. Several team coaches in our conference are not taking a dime and in some cases are underwriting the whole program just to get the sport going at their schools. I don't think we should turn this into a competition of the haves vs the have nots. I agree that stats from non conference events should be included into consideration for all state team selection 5 or 6 years down the road. We are just not there yet. Give it some time.
    9.3 KKBowler: As being part of the all state selection committee, we do look at all ideas and thoughts for the all state selections. You have to remember that the form we now use was put together from the ideas of the coaches during the annual meeting. We will take the ideas and discuss the pros and cons of using new ideas. We need to keep in mind that we are looking for the best bowlers in the state and no matter what form is put together, there will be people unhappy and trying to find the gray areas to get their people included. Plus, you have to remember that there has to be people to tabulate the totals with verification, and this can take a lot of time. We need to keep in mind that we are all going for the same thing, to award the best bowlers and promote the sport of varsity bowling. Good luck to all that made it to the state meet!
    9.4 Eagle Eye: I agree totally with MSUANDU...
    There has to be something done about those bowlers who are pulled to protect averages and won/lost points. It has to start with the coaches though to keep from doing it. A bowler who is pulled for any reason other than an injury should get credit for the game and the win or loss.
    Also, I agree with the comment about putting too much emphasis on the regional and state tournament for the All State selections. You can have a good weekend and get more points than someone who has bowled well for 10 weeks during the season and has a 4.0 grade point average and bowled 3 honor scores. There should be no more than a maximum of 5 points for making it out of the regional and maybe an extra 2 points for being the leading qualifier and the same for the state finals, 5 for making match play and 2 additional for winning. Giving a potential of 40 all state points skews the standings.
    Whoever decides the oil pattern for the regionals and finals needs to make sure that the pattern that is used is fair and equitable to all. Taking away oil on a condition and then having 8 bowlers bowl 6 games across the house in effect makes 24 games on a lane. Removing the amount of oil applied is ridiculous giving an advantage to a certain type of player. They need to make sure that the condition is equitable for all types of bowlers, both right and left handed. Also, you should not make the condition tougher at the finals than what was used at the regionals. If anything, the tougher shot should have been at the regional level and then easier at the finals.
    I also like the idea of tracking baker statistics for each bowler and having that criteria reported for the all state selection. You would have to rely on the integrity of the coaches to accurately track strike, spare and open percentage but there is a great deal of emphasis being placed on baker games now and being able to perform in the clutch should be considered.
      9.5 The One: I have to agree with Kazbowl. Why are we separating the haves from the have nots when it comes to all state or dream team? Why are we mixing apples and oranges? What should be included in any all state or dream team selections should be simply any conference meets, non-conference meets as long as the format is the same as the conference, regional team and state team final scores period! Remember this is an MHSAA sport that promotes teams not individuals. I believe we are the only MHSAA sport that has an individual event and team event. Kids should be scored on what they do as a team member. In our conference in order to become selected to all conference they must bowl at 75% of the games possible. They are awarded 1 additional point for every game bowled above the minimum as a reward for completing their game. This would take care of the question of removing a bowler to keep the average up. Remember according to the USBC High School Rules that any bowler substituted for during a team game cannot be awarded any score or credited with any game. And the same goes for the bowler substituting. And maybe points toward the all state or dream team could be given to those who make their leagues all conference teams if not already being used.
    It looks like we are turning this whole thing into a scoring nightmare. Everyone jockeying around to make things fit for certain individuals. And who has time to keep track of all of these extra things like awarding 2/10th of a point for a strike in the bakers?
    I would be really careful here. If we are headed down the path of promoting individuals, other MHSAA teams will notice, ask why they get it and they don't, then we could loose our singles event very quickly.
        9.5.1 Monk: The comment made by THE ONE in regard to bowling as the only MHSAA Sport with individual and  team titles got me thinking. Perhaps we should look at just a team competition. But, golf does have a singles format in that a single player may qualify from their regional for the state meet. Golf also awards an all state team based on individual performances at state. In addition, dream teams and all state teams are still selected in so called "team sport" formats such as football, basketball and baseball. As much as we like promote the team aspect of bowling, it's still made up of individuals. One of the characteristics of the human race is its need to define and establish hierarchy.
        9.5.2 wswbowler: In your post you said that "USBC High School has a rule that any bowler substituted for during a team game cannot be awarded or credited for that score." Can you tell me where you found that rule? I've looked but I can't find it.
8. MSUANDU: I think it is great that conferences are having a singles tournament sometime during or at the end of the season. My question and/or concern deals with the number of games bowled during this one day, one alley event.
    Should a singles tournament count for 33 to 50 percent of a player’s seasonal average (i.e.. 6 games bowled  for event while only bowling 12 or less during the season)? I believe the maximum number of games counted should be equal to or less than the number of games normally bowled during an approved team event. This would more than likely keep it to 3 or less.
        8.1 The One: My feeling would be the singles tournament is outside of regular conference season competition and averaging. The singles tournament scores should not be used in conference averages at all.  It would be like bowling in 2 different leagues. In each league you have an individual average. So you would have a tournament average and a season average.

7. Bowling~Fan: Questions:
    1: Who are the strong teams to watch out for in the southwest 8 and Regional and State competition?
    2: Are Boys on the J.V Girls’ team, more popular these day?
        7.1 C-Town Crown:
        1: Coldwater Varsity Girls, Jonesville Varsity Boys, Pennfield Varsity Boys
          2: There is a boy on the JV Girls team, because one of the members quit after the season started. Tom is the boys manager and had the lowest average on the boy's team. There is no rule stating that a boy cannot be on the girls team during the conference events. It only prohibits him from bowling on their team at the regional and state level.
6. T-Town Bowler: Something I have looked for and have not found anywhere are schedules for
the majority of the conferences in Michigan.  I think a good addition to mhsibca.com would be individual master conference schedules that could be posted on the site, along with the results from the past matches.
5. RHSBowler: The Rockford Rams are a team to look out for. We are a strong, young team and have improved greatly from where we all were last year.
4. The One: The CAAC is alive and coming to the Division 1 Regionals! This is the year to be aware of the RAM!. The Holt Rams. Watch out west coast!
3. T-Town Bowler: I read on the www.mlive.com high school bowling forum that three of the Hudsonville teams best players quit following the Fruitport Invitational. It appeared Phil Dehaan's (I think that is spelled right?) parent wrote the announcement that they had quit. Obviously, that is a big blow to their program and an unfortunate situation for these bowlers. One of the other bowlers, Nick Broene, had a video clip of him bowling a 300 played on a national news network for high schools--I certainly appreciate what he did for awareness of our sport. Are these "rumors" true?
        3.1 Bowl Swami: Rumors run rampant on MLive. If there be any truth to such, the Bowl Swami shall seek it out. It has been said that Nick Broene suffered a physical injury playing basketball. If that were true, then the Hudsonville team would fall upon difficult times. Their coach, it is known, is definitely not a quitter. I shall press mine ear to the knot hole of the pines and seek ye some answers.
                3.1.1 Bowl Swami: To: T-Town Bowler: After viewing the post you refer to on MLive, a request for its  removal has been accepted. A discussion of the issues involved would not be appropriate on this site. It is true that a player or two may have quit the team. If they have, their reasons for that decision would only be within their minds and not those of others.
     It is also true that Nick Broene (his 300 game was broadcast on a National School News Network, Channel One) has suffered an injury while playing another sport, but he has not quit. While the Hudsonville team may be facing adversity, I have no doubt that the character of their team will only improve, as most bowlers are emblematic of the code that is professed by the Michigan High School Athletic Association. While there is an Athletic Code for Coaches, there is also one for Athletes. If you wish a copy of the Athletic Code for Athletes let me know, and the Bowl Swami shall pass it on to you. Go Hudsonville!
2. Noodles: I would like to see more effective scoring for the regular games bowled. If a player is removed after 5 frames, the final score should be recorded as belonging to the player removed. Either that, or find a way to record each frame (ie: use .10 for each frame bowled). This would eliminate some coaches who remove players in the 9th or 10th frame to keep that player's average higher than it should be.
1. The Divine Coach: Why was the Baker format changed to an alternating lane format? The Collegiate level uses the same lane format. Coaches and Players, comments please!
        1.1 T-Town Bowler: I agree with divine coach.  The bakers should have stayed the
same, as it would have caused a lot less confusion, and would have modeled the
college level better. I would like to add that TECUMSEH IS GOING TO WIN THEIR CONFERENCE!!!  Our
season starts on the 4th....WATCH OUT!
        1.2 Monk: It was decided at the MHSAA Bowling committee level to try this format for one year. One of the coaches had used the format in a tournament and found it to be quicker. We have been using the format in practices and non-conference meets. Timing wise, it seems to be the same. It does help with the speed of the meet in that the bowling center counter person does not have to change the lane configurations from cross to single lane play. It also helps the fans keep track of who's ahead as the teams names stay on the lane on which they started the match. The athletes don't mind the format. The only drawback I see is that the intensity is squelched when bowlers have to wait for the opposing team player to complete a frame.
        1.3 Shy Guy: The coaches at the Bay City John Glenn Holiday Tournament, some 40 strong, enjoyed the even pace, and with equal access to both lanes, it gave both teams equal conditions for each game. Obviously Monk was not present during the Semi-Final match between the ladies of Stevenson and Milford. Wow, it was an intense battle! What does Monk mean that a team has to wait until a frame is finished? In regular Bakers, isn't it proper procedure that a team does not get any frames ahead? They both have to stay in the same frames.
                1.3.1 Monk: In response to Shy Guy and the question of waiting for the lane. In single lane Baker, there is no rule in MHSAA tournament competition that prohibits a team from bowling out their Baker before the other team. The old, "not get two frames ahead", was from the BCAM days.
          1.4 The Witty One: I think the baker games were better when each team was assigned to 1 lane. This made it possible for the players to gain momentum yielding higher scores. Isn't gaining momentum as a team the fun of baker games?
        1.5 Shy Guy: I see that the alternating baker system is catching some heat from a few squeaky wheels. Let us review. Alternating bakers removes the chance of a pair of lanes that are not oiled the same giving one team an unfair advantage over another. It speeds transition from team games to the baker format. The trip to the counter to reset the pair from league to open play is eliminated. It increases the intensity of a match. Bakers were not meant to be a track meet and a race to finish. Many baker games are over before an opposing team reaches the 9th and 10th frame. A coach must show restraint, sportsmanship and class in keeping his team from rocketing ahead of the opposition, but many do not, as win at all costs is sometimes the bottom line. Alternating bakers, of course, eliminates this situation. The final issue that has always bothered me, all award scores are based on a pair of lanes. A Baker 300 under the old format does not follow the guidelines laid down for every other team or individual award. The complaints from coaches always refer back to the college formats....well, maybe they need to also change. There, I have stated my case...I feel better....sort of.
        1.6 The One: We are using the alternating lane format in the bakers and I do see a loss of enthusiasm when a team gets on a string. But I also see the other team being able to respond to that string going one frame at a time. It seems to put pressure on the other team when one responds back with a strike of their own rather than having built up a surplus sort of thing. I do not miss those games when the other team finishes way ahead because they have taken it off the sheet. What I do see is kids forgetting which lane to bowl on. If you are not using the alternate method in your league now be prepared to make score changes in the Regionals.

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